#75 – The Link between Porn and Human Trafficking | Lisa Thompson

Ep. 75 - Podcast Thumbnail Title: Podcast Thumbnails

In this digital age, there is no doubt that the use of different technologies and the continuous evolution of global media has been beneficial for us and made it much easier for us to spread and receive information. Because of this, underground industries and the black market are taking advantage of this widening reach, allowing them to revolutionize sex trafficking.

Pornography has become even more accesible to everyone, making it dangerous for young people or children who also use the Internet on a daily basis. 

In this episode, we have Lisa Thompson, a member of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation who are the key contributors to fighting human trafficking, raising awareness, and empowering people to end it. 

We talk about the similarities of human trafficking vs. pornography, how media has a predatory dependence upon vulnerable women and children, and how she used her voice and bravery to travel the world to do her job and raise awareness on this issue.

Visit their website to learn more.

  • National Center on Sexual Exploitation
  • Combatting sex trafficking
  • Trafficking Victims Protection Act
  • Pornhub as a porn aggregator website
  • Human trafficking is becoming a masterful science for some people
  • The Internet revolutionized the way sex trafficking happens
  • Both the pornography and prostitution industry are dependent upon vulnerable people
  • Pornography is prostitution

Episode Transcript:

Andrew Love 

Welcome back to Love, Life, and Legacy, the definitive podcast of the entire cosmos when it comes to sexual integrity. And in today’s episode, I’m interviewing this really fantastic human being. Her name is Lisa Thompson. I met her at a carpet event in Las Vegas. And she’s a part of an organization that I’ve been a fan of for years called the National Center on sexual exploitation. They’re based out of DC, you might have heard of them. If you haven’t, please exit the rock from whence you existed underneath and join the rest of the world because they’re one of the key contributors to fighting human trafficking.

Andrew Love 

I’ve loved them for years, but I’ve gotten to know a few of their employees, Dawn Hawkins, Patrick, whom I met a couple of times. And I love them even more because the people that comprise the organization are so real, and raw and powerful. Check it out. Just listen to this interview and take some notes about the similarities? What are the parallels between human trafficking and pornography?

Andrew Love 

It’s really important to understand this point so that you can have more ammunition to not participate in this horrible losing transaction porn because it really adds to a world that we don’t want to be a part of which is using and abusing others for our benefit. Enjoy this interview. She’s a really cool lady. It was brief because he had a meeting right after but we still got a lot of beautiful gems in there. Please enjoy Lisa Thompson cozy.

Andrew Love 

Alright everybody, welcome back. Today, we have a very special guest. Somebody that I met a couple of years ago, we were trying to figure out when we saw each other last. Apparently, we’re in some weird time-space continuum where we can’t ever remember because time is so strange these days, but I believe it was about two years ago in Las Vegas that had an amazing event to raise awareness about sexual integrity.

Andrew Love 

She’s a part of an organization that I’ve been a nerd for, for years since I first saw them at the Josh McDowell, Set Free Summit back five years ago or something. I saw Dawn Hawkins. I heard about NCOSE, which is the National Center On Sexual Exploitation. I’ve been such a big fan because they’re so hardcore about ending human trafficking, raising awareness, but also empowering people to end this ridiculous plight on humanity. And a few years later I met Lisa Thompson, who’s here with us today. She has such a deep heart. I think within 10 minutes of meeting you, Lisa, I think you were crying. It was like a breakout at the event and you’re crying. I was like “Wow! this person. She’s in it for the right reasons. She’s really both strong and has a really rich and deep heart.”I’d like to welcome up Lisa Thompson, up to bat here on the Love, Life, and Legacy podcast.

Lisa Thompson 

Andrew, thanks for having me.

Andrew Love 

Thank you for coming. I know we’ve been meaning to do this for months now. But I was in a weird time zone. And we all get busy. So thank you for making time.

Lisa Thompson 

Oh, glad to.

Andrew Love 

Yes, thank you. And we don’t get to see each other. We’re just talking right now. But I do really remember, everybody that I’ve met in NCOSE when I meet them, It’s like I’ve known them forever. You guys are all just really wonderful. I’d love to hear what NCOSE is and why does it attract such amazing people?

Lisa Thompson 

Well, the NCOSE is the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. And I think what you’re talking about there, into your life that kind of connection, or that feeling you get around certain people, it’s just when you know, you found your tribe. You found people who share your concerns and vision and passion in the world. And you just suddenly connect. That’s really cool to hear you say that you are nerds for us. I just love it. Thank you. It’s a high compliment from you.

Lisa Thompson 

We’re the National Center on sexual exploitation. Our organization has been around since the 1960s. If you can believe it. We go back a long way. In the early days, we were focused entirely on efforts to combat pornography, and back in time, we were known by a different name in the 60s. But then that organization, Morality in Media, worked really hard for decades to combat the normalization of pornography, improved federal obscenity laws, or actually I’m sorry, improved state-federal, improved state obscenity laws. There, I got it out, advocated for enforcement of federal obscenity law, and just did a whole lot around the issue of pornography.

Lisa Thompson 

They did that work for 40 years. But over time,  the organization was waiting, it was losing strength and momentum. Then in about the mid-2000s, Patrick Trueman joined, and shortly thereafter, Dawn Hawkins and way more, new life was breathed into the organization, and the conventionally changed our name to the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. And we really also went through a lot of strategic conversations and decided to broaden our scope. Well, pornography will always be one of the main cornerstone issues that we focus on. We’ve worked to address the entire web of sexual abuse and exploitation. Everything from a child on child harmful sexual behavior to sexual assault, sexual identification. You name it. Prostitution, pornography, sex trafficking, all these issues, we want to work to combat them all.

Lisa Thompson 

And what we bring unique to this work is that we want to highlight the ways that are interconnected. You don’t think that, well, I need a backup. What I see a lot of my experiences that child sexual abuse is over in one box, and sex trafficking is in another box. But in fact, those are just a couple of examples of two things that are very closely related, intersect with each other. And then when you start peeling back the layers of the onion or examining this problem, he’s like “Wow, there are deep roots that right into the issue of pornography.” That’s a lot of what we do. In a nutshell, we want to defend human dignity and oppose all forms of sexual abuse and exploitation.

Andrew Love 

That’s a big mission statement right there.

Lisa Thompson 

It’s exhausting sometimes.

Andrew Love 

Yes, especially the walls are closing in? Well, we’ll get into a lot of this, because that’s another reason why I love your organization. Because regardless of what the culture may seem like, it’s like the direction, it seems like it’s headed, you’re always finding new sources of inspiration. And there’s no fire lost in any one of you. Because I’m betting on you. I know that in the end, you guys are going to win. I’ve seen Dawn during difficult hours when things were not going well, but still, she found hope and same with you, same with the whole organization. I want to get into that in a bit. First, I want to figure it out. So it was Patrick, and then Dawn, and then where did you come into the picture? And how did that happen?

Lisa Thompson 

I came on board. It was about five and a half years ago when I joined the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. And before that, I have been involved in efforts to combat sex trafficking for roughly a little less than 20 years overall, through different organizations. But had been involved in advocacy efforts, helping organizations start their kind of really focused on survivor services, the most part, trying to stand up survivor programs to help get survivors to services that they need. But then, the longer I was involved in those efforts, the more I was becoming frustrated because I realized we’re not really stopping the flow or the creation of new victims.

Lisa Thompson 

They were building all these hospitals at the bottom of the cliff that came up, put a fence up on top. It stops all this horrible exploitation before it begins. The more I kept mulling over the issue and learning about it, I saw these ties with the pornography industry, then I was following, I’m kind of like you, Andrew. I was an NCOSE nerd. I was following the National Center on sexual exploitation before it was even called that. And I was like “Wow, it would be my dream to work with Pat and Dawn in order to combat pornography.”  Long story short, I did reach out to them at some point and one day and just say “Hey, I’m in the market for a job, I’d love to work for you guys.” And thankfully, you know, they took me up on it.

Lisa Thompson 

We have had some opportunities to work together in the past, so they knew me, so that helps. But anyway, that was five and a half years ago now. And I can hardly believe it. Like, “What’s happened in that time, and how things have changed for our organization?” And really where we are as a movement, things have really shifted.

Andrew Love 

It has, and I mean, tickled me ignorant. You’ve been fighting already for almost 20 years prior, and I had no idea honestly, that there’s a word for human trafficking up until very recently, because now it’s really everywhere, right? But how did you want to fight this?Because it was kind of not a well-known topic in society, not something that is often being discussed. Now, it’s definitely more in the public forum, but say 20 plus years ago, what compelled you to do something so righteous?

Lisa Thompson 

Well, that was really providential. Basically, I got a job with an organization in DC. I was young, and I was an office manager, but it was a faith-based group that did some policy work. And they got involved in the early efforts to pass the Trafficking Victims Protection Act, and this was like late 1998. At the time, I seriously had no idea about what trafficking was, never heard of it and was just really mortified, but also compelled. I thought “Wow. I really want to do something about this.”I had been told that I could  get myself more involved in particular advocacy efforts. Approval was given and I started doing all I could to help us, to help support coalition efforts that were going on to pass the Trafficking Victims Protection Act (TVPA).

Lisa Thompson 

While that effort started in ’98, the building was completed by October 2000, so there was quite a lot of work that myself and others did. I was a small player in this, so get the idea of whatever I say here. I was like a green hornet in DC and didn’t know much. I was just learning. And fortunately, I met people, I met some amazing people. I was also mentored by a woman who was very informed who took me under her wing and taught me so much about this issue. Eventually, I just decided this is what I wanted to do. I really wanted to stay focused, become 100% focused on this. And thankfully, a door opened.

Lisa Thompson 

Eventually, I ended up going to the Salvation Army. I worked there for more than 12 years, helping them with startup programs to combat trafficking and helping with some policy efforts there, they were engaged somewhat in policy or advocacy efforts. And then did another stand relief and development organization that ran trafficking programs overseas. I did spend some time in places like West Africa and Cambodia helping manage those programs. And then I ended up, I reached out to NCOSE to the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. And thankfully, the door opened and I was able to come on board, and it’s really been a great fit. I just love working where I do.

Andrew Love 

Yes, I can tell. We don’t have that much time together, but what I’d really love for people to walk away from listening to this is understanding what’s going on in this world. You hear a lot, there’s a lot of “Pornhub is evil, and this is a massive entity. “I was very confused because when I went to Montreal for a month, I drove by the headquarters of Pornhub. As most innocuous, like it’s a nothing building, it doesn’t look fancy, it’s just maybe four floors or something like that. It’s very nondescript, very unassuming. And you’d never presume that anything like a world dominion of trafficking could emanate from such a place. That also messes my mind a bit, because it’s kind of like “What’s real? What’s fake? How big is this issue? What’s the correlation with porn?” I’ve just loved to try to unpack this to help people understand “What is human trafficking? How does it impact us, and how is it connected to porn?”

Lisa Thompson 

Wow, there’s a lot of different angles there.

Andrew Love 

I know how huge it is.

Lisa Thompson 

Okay. But I’ll start with a little bit about Pornhub for people who may not be very familiar. Pornhub is just one public-facing part of a company called MindGeek. Pornhub is probably the most well-known of its many entities. And Pornhub is essentially what they call a porn aggregator website, so think of it as YouTube for pornography. People share videos. They upload them. They can download them, at least they could until about a month ago, they could download content from there. It became this gigantic porn site. One of them in fact, just like a couple of weeks ago, when I was looking, it was ranked number 11 in the entire world for website traffic. Now, it is ranked number 10. I think it’s dropped to number 11. Anyway, you get the idea.

Lisa Thompson 

It’s a very highly ranked website. It may not even be the most visited, there’s some serious competition. But at any rate, Pornhub is more well-known because they’re sort of into branding themselves. They put out big advertising campaigns. They’re noted. They have a lot of notoriety for the fact that they are out. They’re just well-known for gimmicks and stunts to bring themselves publicity.

Lisa Thompson 

At any rate, this is a massive website. It’s hard for people to imagine the scale of what we’re talking about with just Pornhub. For instance, over 4 million videos are uploaded each year, and we’re talking about new videos. Four million new video uploads each year. A lot of that content is rife with child sexual abuse material, sexual assault material, it’s got a lot of it’s racist. There’s stuff like spy cam footage and just all kinds of other exploitive, likely criminal content on the site. But in your mind, he does the parent company, and its whole business model has monetized massive amounts of unverified user-generated material that includes stuff like child sexual abuse, material, and rape. Any rate where ourselves and allies have been involved for years in trying to call out the pornography industry to get laws enforced so that Pornhub and other sites like it would be held to account.

Lisa Thompson 

And I should really back up and say MindGeek, because that is the company that’s ultimately in control of the whole thing. Another little point here is, not a little point. It’s a big point. You’ve got literally billions of hits on this site every year, so many people from around the world visit it, and it’s conditioning people’s sexual templates. They’re getting exposed to this stuff is because of seeing rough sex portrayed, seeing degrading acts portrayed, seeing even criminal content portrayed. This is becoming normal to people. I think that is one of the serious problems, I mean, right now, there’s a big investigation in the Pornhub that’s launching. But that was because of some of the advocacy that’s been going on.

Lisa Thompson 

Finally, some high-profile journalists started paying attention to what we’ve been saying. And Nicholas Kristof wrote a piece that appeared in The New York Times, documenting some of the abuses that are going on Pornhub, particularly surrounding minors. For the first time, there’s a massive outcry. You’re like “Wait a minute. This has been going on. Most people know about it. It’s not like it’s a hidden-in-plain-sight kind of thing.”

Lisa Thompson 

But finally because of the coverage in the New York Times, it sort of has given, whether people did intentionally not have their heads buried in the sand or somehow ignorant to this. Now the veil has been torn off, and the curtain is pulled aside and people know what’s going on Pornhub. The Canadian Parliament has actually just launched an investigation into Pornhub because Pornhub is based, I should say, MindGeek is based in Canada, where you have, as you were just mentioning, going by the headquarters. Just today, the Canadian Parliament Ethics committees began their investigation into MindGeek when they got some very compelling testimony from a young victim who had her contents of images of herself uploaded to Pornhub as a minor. And so we’re excited about this progress that’s happening on this front, that finally, somebody is paying attention to what’s been going on for years now.

Andrew Love 

How do you see this playing out in the next 10, 20 years? Because there’s a clear convergence of, you know, people really getting good at exploiting people, right? Making billions of dollars off of it. Human trafficking is becoming a masterful science for some people. Yet at the same time, now, there’s more awareness, and there are more people fighting against it. It really seems like this battle of good and evil for somebody who’s been in the midst of this battle for so long. Where do you see this kind of playing out? When do you see MindGeek being taken to court and being questioned? Do you see this says something that just couldn’t happen in the past and finally it’s happening? Or is this history repeating itself, and it’s just we’re getting closer and closer to some ultimate end. How do you see this play out?

Lisa Thompson 

Just one quick clarification. If this thing was talking about in Canada it’s the Canadian Parliament, so that’s not exactly a lawsuit. But some lawsuits are emerging, and people are beginning to sue Pornhub, which is a very positive development. But to your question, as someone who’s been involved in this area for many years now, I would say that for people who care about ending sex trafficking, who care about stopping child sexual abuse and any other kind of sexual violence, you must care about mainstream adult pornography sites, like Pornhub. You must care about what MindGeek does.

Andrew Love 

Please explain. I want everybody to understand this.

Lisa Thompson 

I think the problem is that people think that this sex trafficking or child sexual abuse material, child pornography is how most people refer to it. This is not a dark web issue. I mean, yes, it happens on the dark web, but so much of it now is just on the mainstream internet. The internet basically completely revolutionized the way sex trafficking happens. It changed or radically changed the way child sexual abuse happens. It made it a growth industry. Because everything can be facilitated online. It made so many things easier for the exploiters. So let’s talk a little bit about sex trafficking.

Lisa Thompson 

With sex trafficking, in the past, when people were being sex trafficked, prostituted, pimps on city streets they were out in the public. The prostitution was happening in the open on the streets, or maybe it was happening out of the strip club or someplace like that. But you had to have the person who was the buyer, who was looking to engage that person had to go out to a certain part of town and troll around looking for somebody to buy for sex. The Internet took that whole step out. So that made shopping for people for sex convenient is, hooking scrolling a website like Amazon.

Lisa Thompson 

You could simply surf the web find connect on certain internet platforms that had entire business models built on buying basically on prostitution for facilitating prostitution. And if the demand for people who are looking to buy people, it made it so easy to bring it out of the shadows. It was right there on the internet so that the law enforcement had a much harder time identifying what was going on. And because of the internet, basically, it just exploded like wildfire. You have prostitution booming all across the country. And when you’ve got this demand exploding, of course, you’re going to have trafficking in order to meet that demand because demand always outstrips supply.

Lisa Thompson 

At any rate, we’re thinking about, see that all these websites that are dedicated to promoting prostitution, but you also have websites that are dedicated their whole business model is premised on, on making pornography available. And I think even today, I was thinking, as I was listening to this rumor that was going on about Pornhub and MindGeek. One of the things that really stood out to me was like this young survivor telling her story about how this video that she’d sent to a boy who she thought liked her who kept grooming her and harassing her to send him an explicit video, how it got shared at school, and how it got uploaded.

Lisa Thompson 

But then everywhere she went, whatever school she was at, people knew. People would see her videos, and I’m thinking this is insane. She was in seventh and eighth grade, and these kids are seeing her video. Now, that should be a wake-up call for everybody.

Andrew Love 

Pornhub is well-known to your children. It’s not a shock. It’s not something that they don’t know. It’s not a place that they’re not going in that scene. And it’s not that I’m saying the kids are bad, it’s just that we have, as a society, completely created. We’ve taken the guardrails off entirely. It’s like it blows my mind. You wouldn’t take our kids and set them in a Triple X store and say “Hey, go have coffee or not have class in the middle of this Triple X store.” We’ll put them in schools, with computers, without filters. We’ll give them Chromebooks without filters. We might as well be setting them in the Triple X store.

Andrew Love 

Because the internet is just completely rife with pornography. And the kids are going to find it and see it, whether they look forward or not, they’re going to be seeing it. They’ll find it accidentally, or their friends and other kids at school will show it to them. So this is how this now young woman had her life completely derailed because her images got uploaded to Pornhub, and she was harassed and bullied to the point where she wanted to commit suicide. It was so extreme. At any rate back to my main point is that the internet has completely changed things. And now things that children never would have seen or been exposed to, they can carry around right in their back pockets. And really a whole world of extreme sex and fetishized content is just at their fingertips.

Andrew Love 

But I guess I need to back up more because what I wanted to say about pornography here in the pornography sites on the internet is that it’s this is shaping, this is creating a market. Pornography users escalate. The kind of content that they begin watching is going to satisfy them a few months down the road. They’re going to have to look for different kinds of content in order to be satisfied and to get their sexual satisfaction. This is why there’s literally no end to the types of pornography that are available, the extremes in the pornography that’s out there, the wealth of fetishized content. Some of that made for a significant portion of those people who start consuming pornography and go down that path and become compulsive users. Some of them are going to become sex buyers in terms of buying, not literally wanting to buy people. There’s a link between the demand for use of pornography and the demand for prostitution. And both of these trades, both the pornography industry and the prostitution industry are dependent upon vulnerable people to make up the performer, to be the one who’s consumed.

Andrew Love 

Now, I’m not saying that every single person who’s involved in the sex trade was sexually abused as a child, but we know that many of them were. We know that many of them come from broken homes, homes of neglect, have all kinds of hurdles to get an education, to have a meaningful income, and the sex trade. Because all are too willing to take advantage of that. I don’t know, hopefully at that point is becoming clear that the sex industry has a predatory dependence upon vulnerable women and children to make up those who are the performers, whether that’s in pornography, or in the actual exchange of sex between two people and person.

Andrew Love 

You and your organization are incredibly powerful. And from what I gather, based on the organizations that you’ve been a part of you are a believer in God. Typically, in the providence of God, it’s not a large number of people that are required to make a massive difference, right? It’s just a few very clear, very strong, very united people who can make a tidal wave of difference in terms of history. And I would love to know because honestly, I know I lived in DC for a while. I got to know about the whole lobbyist or that genre of life, and how much money is being flowed into Washington from the porn industry from really bad sources.

Andrew Love 

And I know that NCOSE, you guys are doing pretty well, but you’re not flush with cash. You don’t have to spare hundreds of millions of dollars to throw out a senator when you want to. With all that considered, it seems like if you’re just looking at what’s happening culturally, from your eyes, it seems like we’re losing momentum. But I know intuitively, and when I speak to people like you that actually momentum is tilting in our favor.

Andrew Love 

I would love to hear from you, what you’re really excited about the victories that you’ve been a part of, in the next few years, what do you really anticipate in terms of seeing a cultural shift?

Lisa Thompson 

Yes, that’s such a cool question. And what I’m excited about, one, is efforts to combat demand. I really feel that the demand is the key. We can build programs to help survivors forever. While we need to do that work, we’re just going to be serving more victims. We’re just creating a service industry that’s never going to go away, and we want to see this stopped. We have to look at the cultural levers that create the problem.

Lisa Thompson 

When it comes to child sexual abuse, when it comes to sex trafficking, when it comes to all the harm that’s done to people in the pornography industry, and in prostitution, that lover is the demand that people who are the consumer of those, whether they’re in pornography or prostitution. I should make a quick distinction here or clarification that pornography is prostitution. It’s prostitution with a camera in the room. It’s prostitution for mass consumption. And as I was explaining earlier, it contributes so significantly to the demand for all these other abusive things.

Lisa Thompson 

In terms of what excites me, it’s efforts to combat demand, whether that be through improved legal mechanisms that hold sex buyers accountable, that put the onus of responsibility on those who buy people for sex rather than on arresting the people who are purchased for sex over and over, which is the model that we’ve seen in the US for forever. There’s some growing momentum there to basically disentangle the laws that deal with prostitution so that the person who’s purchased is not victimized, is not criminalized. We really focus our criminal penalties on the people who harm, and that’s the buyers. That’s exciting for me to see a lot of effort around there.

Andrew Love 

What is the link for that?

Lisa Thompson 

In fact, for those who don’t know your audience, NCOSE has recently brought onboard a website, we now manage called demand-forum.org, which is all about efforts to help in documenting how communities are combating using various legal mechanisms to hold sex buyers to account. We have these tactics to counter the demand for paid sex. We’re very excited about that.

Lisa Thompson 

It’s called demand, and then there’s dash forum.org. We’re going to be doing a lot of work on that website in the next year and a half so people can keep their eye on it. There’ll be a lot more coming to that website soon. And then I would say, I think one of the other big things is our dirty dozen list. We’ve been doing it for a while now. And it’s where we publish the names of mainstream entities that you’ll profit from, contributing to the normalization of sexual exploitation. But we’re seeing it. It’s really taking hold.

Lisa Thompson 

We’ve been building this project. We’re building it and working to have an influence on corporations, to change corporate policy, to hold corporate actors to account for the things that they do that fuel this whole culture of sexual exploitation. And we’re really finally having breakthroughs with some of these companies and seeing policies change. I find that incredibly exciting. For instance, one of the reasons why we are where we are now with Pornhub and MindGeek is because of the pressure. We were able to put on payment processors like Visa and MasterCard to stop processing payments for Pornhub and MindGeek, so that was massive. We were finally able to hold, make them enforce their corporate policies, Visa and MasterCard. That puts a pinch on Pornhub. It really hurts them where to them it counts which is their pocketbook. Those are some examples of some of the things that I’m excited about.

Andrew Love 

Yes, thank you. And thank you for all you do. I know you have to leave in one minute. I’m very conscious of that. But I just want to validate your efforts and let you know that a lot of people that we’re connected to, we have connections to people all over the world. And they’re very much aware of your efforts, and really do appreciate them. We try to stay in our lane and are trying to build out ways for people to create visions and live out their visions of what healthy sexuality is. We tried to not get into politics and all that, but it’s so important, but we leave that to the experts, which is you. And we know that you’re doing such a great job. We’re big fans of your organization. I just want to say thank you for all that you do. It makes a huge difference. On those days, when it seems like the world is against you, we’re with you, and we love you guys so much. So thank you.

Lisa Thompson 

Well, Andrew, we thank you so much, really. I’m just so grateful for the opportunity to share and that you care and that you highlight these issues and that you’re working the way you are to help people live lives with dignity and sexual integrity towards each other. I mean, that’s just fantastic. And we’re really grateful for it to have you as an ally so thank you so much.

Andrew Love 

Thank you. And I hope you have a great day and a great next meeting. I got to let you go. As much as I don’t want to, I have to.

Lisa Thompson 

I’m so sorry, I have to run. Maybe we can pick this theme up another time.

Andrew Love 

Yes. There’ll be part two later on.

Lisa Thompson 

Okay, awesome. Take care, Andrew.

Andrew Love 

Thank you.

Andrew Love 

I hope you found that episode enjoyable. And before we go, I wanted to challenge you to take your life on to the next level. And if you’re struggling in any way with pornography, with masturbation, with issues of sexuality that just are not helping you at all. If you want to reclaim your life, reclaim your eyes and ears, your time, your energy, then take our free 15-Day Challenge. If you go to highnoon.org, you can find our 15-Day Challenge right there on the front page.

Andrew Love 

Take it. It’s absolutely free. No strings attached. We’ve designed it to help you gain some level of momentum in your journey of sexual integrity so that you can take the next step, whatever that may be, it could be to go to our deeper ascend program, which is a 90-day program we have. It could be to reach out to that accountability partner. It could be to just take whatever steps you need to take in your journey to build the life of heavenly sexuality that you deserve. So go to highnoon.org right now, if you want to break up with porn and start to get engaged with the life of your dreams and eventually marry it. Doesn’t it sound nice? So go to highnoon.org to find all of those resources and more.

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