Ep. 25 - Podcast Thumbnail

#25 – My Journey With Same-Sex Attraction | Gene

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Ep. 40 - Podcast Thumbnail

High Noon is a place where we can talk openly about personal struggles and highlight tremendous personal growth. In this candid interview, Gene shares his journey with same-sex attraction. Gene also shares how he was able to approach his situation with openness and honesty, reaping the benefits of therapy and a renewed relationship with his now wife.

  • Gene’s approach to achieving what he wanted in his marriage
  • What did Gene experience from the age of 13?
  • What did Gene do to clarify what he wanted in his life?
  • How has Gene dealt with the conflict within himself?
  • How did getting a mentor/therapist facilitate more clarity and healing?
  • How did Gene’s relationship with his father develop through his therapy process?
  • What does Gene share about how he experiences sex?
  • How does choice play a big role in Gene’s current relationship?


Episode Transcript:

Sammy Uyama: All right, we’re live. Okay, ready? Three, two. All right. So… Hello, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Love, Life and Legacy, show about sex. We’re here to talk with you about a variety of topics to do with sex and sexuality to provide a level headed viewpoint that you can rely on. That’s something that’s tried, tested and true. And this whirlwind of a sexual culture that we live in, and I’m here today with an amazing guest, Gene is a great guy, someone that I’m really excited to introduce to you guys today. And I want to give him the opportunity to share his background and what he has to bring to the table but just to give you a taster and a teaser, why I’m excited to bring him here; it’s because Gene it’s someone, he’s someone that not only has a great life, a great relationship with marriage, but he’s someone that’s worked for that, and is something that is very intentional about creating that in his life. And he started with a really clear vision for what he wanted regarding his life, regarding a relationship. And he wasn’t deterred by the, this vision that he had and the gap between that and where he was at that moment. And he just looked at what did he need to do in order to accomplish that, and he worked towards that very diligently and very, very hard, just, just doing the hard work of going inside of himself and clearing up whatever needs to be cleared up in order to have what he really wanted. And that sounds vague, because I want to, I want to leave you with that context, cause I want to let him tell his story. And so without further ado, welcome, Gene. How are you today?

Gene: Hey, Sammy, thanks for having me on.

Sammy Uyama: Yeah, we’ll start. We’ll start with something, something you know, we can ease into this conversation a bit. What’s something going great in your life right now that you’re excited about?

Gene: Something great. Well, one thing that’s going great is my relationship with my wife. We are deeply in love. And she’s like one of the greatest people I know. And I’m so lucky to be married to her.

Sammy Uyama: Wow, that sounds definitely like something worth celebrating.

Gene: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sammy Uyama: Yeah. So you’re here on the show with us. People don’t know a lot about you. I just gave this great introduction about why we’re gonna have you here, but uh, maybe what would you, if people can get a little more sense of who you are, and they’ll feel more connected to you? What would you like to share with the audience about yourself?

Gene: Yeah, well, just in terms of that, the show is about exploration of sex and in terms of my own journey I, I definitely had since I was 13. I started to develop these fantasies about, particularly about men’s underwear. And this fetish stuck with me for a long time. And it had me really confused about my sexuality. I wasn’t experiencing attraction to women. I never had a crush on a girl. And I was kind of concerned with doubts of, you know, am I gay? Do I need to be with a man? Can I be with a woman if I wanted to? And that’s, that’s a little bit of a background around me.

Sammy Uyama: Wow. Okay, so I was thinking more like a, where you live and job and but that’s that’s doing right. Now people know, people know you very intimately now. Thank you for sharing that. So that’s a, that’s a huge part, that’s the reason why we wanted you on the show is because to share about your journey that for many people this, there’s a lot to unpack with your experience. This, so dealing with confusion about attraction and experiencing some form of same sex attraction. And because that’s a really sensitive hot topic these days and…

Gene: Right.

Sammy Uyama: It’s really, it’s really inspiring about where you’re coming from in your experience with this, I mean is that, it’s not, your experience with it was never a matter of good and bad and like, or evil and I shouldn’t, you know should or shouldn’t. But you, there’s these things that you had and they were contradictory to what you wanted. And that’s something no one can argue with. Right? It’s like well, you really, deep down, you did this, you looked at what is it that you want in your life? And you wanted a life and you wanted your own family and, and you just looked at what, you know, “Is that possible for me?”. And then after seeing it could be possible that you, just willing to do the work in order to, to get there.

Gene: Yeah, well, I remember being at a silent retreat in India in the Himalayan Mountains. And it was 10 days of silence. And I was, you know, I had my mouth shut. And I was really reflecting on my life while I was practicing meditation. And I was really at, I just kept asking the same question. It was, what do I really want? And I just asked it over and over and over and I contemplated, “Do I want to be with a man? Do I want to be with a woman?” and I, I just kept contemplating, what do I really want? Do I want a family and I, in my gut, I just really felt like, what I want, for whatever reason is, I want to be with a woman and I want kids, I just decided that that’s what I want. And so that’s and now that’s, now I’m, I’m married to my wife and very happily married.

Sammy Uyama: So, inspiring end result. Would you like to share with us, so was, was that the beginning point for you or how far back does this process go for you? That you’re experiencing this conflict regarding your attraction who, what your, your orientation, your attraction?

Gene: Yeah, that’s, (crosstalk) that’s been like a lifelong process, Sammy.

Sammy Uyama: Yeah. Yeah.

Gene: Constantly dealing with what, what’s kind of turning me on? And then also in the other corner, looking at what I want, and I, I kept asking myself what I wanted for years and years and years and years. And sometimes I wasn’t clear and sometimes I was, and for, yeah, pretty much for, for the majority of my life I, in my gut, it’s always just felt like, I want to be with a woman. And that’s just, that’s just what I’ve wanted.  And yeah, nothing against people who choose to be in a same sex relationship. But for myself that, that wasn’t what I wanted deep down.

Sammy Uyama: So well, so gosh, I don’t even know where to begin with that. So like you got clear on what you wanted. But then, I think this is a question for a lot of people then, it’d be that there’s this understanding that sexual attraction is, is hardwired into us. Right? So if you’re feeling these things,

Gene: Right.

Sammy Uyama: And that’s just naturally the way you are so, there’s, I, there’s nothing, someone say there’s nothing you can do about it and others say there’s nothing that, trying to fight against that is very negative actually. So would be… But, but it’s very different than how you approach this. So, I guess, we can start with that, your, what you’ve learned about yourself through this process, and I get, let’s adjust that thing first. What have you learned about that topic?

Gene: Right.  Yeah, so well, I can’t even pretend to know the ins and outs of how sexuality works. I can really only speak from my personal experience. And I, I, what I know is that I have never had a crush on a girl while I was growing up. And so I grew up, really not sure if I could be attracted to a woman. And regardless, I ended up pursuing a woman because I was interested in, in a committed relationship with a woman, who I wanted to have kids with and who wanted to have kids with me and, and I found that my attraction to my current wife developed. And actually I was, I was not into her. I was not aroused by her when I first met her, and I, and when we first in a relationship I, I was very honest with her that, you know, day one, when we started a relationship, I told her, “Hey, I, you know, I get turned on by this fetish and, you know, I, I’m interested in a relationship with a woman, but I just want to let you know that, that’s, that’s what I’m dealing with right now. And if that doesn’t work for you, I totally understand”. And she said, “That’s okay, Gene, and we’ll, we’ll work through it as of now”. And, and I’m so grateful for her for taking a chance on me. But I found several months into our relationship that I started to develop feelings and attraction to her physically. And now, I’m, I’m so aroused by my wife and our relationship and how we, we get to be with each other so free and trusting and, you know, through the highs and the lows, and I, I feel so much attraction for my wife that actually, I, when I, you know, the, like, if I see men’s underwear or if, you know, some sort of soft porn pops up. It just doesn’t really do much for me anymore. I wouldn’t say that I’m, I’m not still somewhat still stimulated by it, but it’s just nothing compared to my wife, so these days, you know, it pops up. And then I like, joke with my wife about it later. Because it’s, it just seems so funny that, that used to be so consuming to me and I used to go to it every day and think about it all the time. And now it just doesn’t really give anything to me. Because my wife is just so much more. I just, I just have really lost my desire for my fetish. It barely feels like it’s my fetish anymore. And there are days when I’m extremely into my wife, and very attracted by her physically. And there are other days where I’m more attracted to her emotionally and I’m not super attracted physically. So the attraction, you know it, it changes day by day as well.

Sammy Uyama: There are so many things that you just said that for, I think just break a lot of people’s framework for their concept about sexuality. So I think we need to take a step back to, back this a little bit. There’s so many what ifs, you just talked about.

Gene: Okay, sure.

Sammy Uyama: One thing I want to go through is, how did, what was this process for you like, where you experienced attraction one direction, and you, you altered it and you develop attraction and in different directions (inaudible) to your wife, we were talking about, what was that process like? And then, and then, I also heard you say, when you first began, can, you met your current wife and your being, talking to each other? You had no physical attraction to her. And so there, that’s a big what if. So, what if it actually never happened? How the heck did you expected, to begin a relationship with her? Right? And was that something you were hope, just hope, fingers-crossed would come or that you were, something you did in order to nurture that and develop that? Okay, so let’s start with those two things, I think those are two pretty big…

Gene: Yeah, okay. Well, I’ll do, I’ll do the second question you asked, first. So, in regards to being concerned about, “Will I develop a, an attraction to my wife?”. That, of course was a big concern, it’s a big concern for both of us. And I told her, I don’t think, I, that we should be in a long term relationship unless there’s at least some significant confidence that, that this is, this is going to work. And my wife was extremely patient and understanding and, and said that, “We’ll, you know, we’ll work through it”. And several months in I found that I started to develop some feelings for her. I started to think about her more. I was really moved by our, our relationship and our honesty, and just being really vulnerably honest with each other, which is a big thing I took away from working with High Noon. I, it was constant practice, being honest, when I don’t want to be honest, being honest, when I don’t want to be honest, again and again and again. And I found that being vulnerably honest, created intimacy. And so I, I started to feel really intimate with my wife and then, and then I started feeling attracted to her and I felt, you know, this, I, I’m developing an attraction towards the woman, and that’s quite baffling. But it was very exciting as well.

Sammy Uyama: Wow. So I, gosh, I think we can… That’s beautiful story, and I don’t know, we’ll do, we’ll just have to see what the response we get from that. But I mean, it really aligns with my beliefs about attraction is that it’s something that you can nurture. And then when you invest into a relationship, then it comes about, I believe that strongly, I hope our audience does as well, we’ll have to see because I know there’s pockets of the internet and of the world that can feel very differently about this topic of attraction. Right?

Gene: Right. And, and I’m, I’m just gonna share, you know, this is, this is my experience, and this is my story. And so, anyways, I hope people can at least just hear that.

Sammy Uyama: And, yeah, yeah, you can’t argue with that. And the other thing that, that you can argue with is something… So you shared earlier that you looked really deeply into what is it that you wanted and deep down, you wanted a relationship with a woman and have children with her? And I’ve left it at that earlier on, but I think, maybe good to address, why is it that you wanted that? Because I think that’s something that, that would be confusing for people as well. That, why would you want something different than what, than the direction you’re faced? I suppose, like if you’re attracted to this thing, and why would you want anything different than that?

Gene: Yeah, that I mean, that is a great question. I hope I can do that question some justice.

Sammy Uyama: I mean, for me, I can preface with I’m okay with, I think that, if there’s something you want, then you and it’s because you want it, then there’s no real need to justify it. Right? But for the sake of understanding and for people, that we can cover it.

Gene: Sure thing. Well, I think one thing that has always, always kind of drawn me to it is the idea of having a family and I, I won’t say that I’m attached to having your traditional family and I, I think, with how progressive society is, society is moving away from the traditional family. And I was clear, though, that I really wanted kids. And I really wanted, I wanted a traditional family. I don’t know how to say it. I, I wanted to be with a woman. And I wanted to have kids. And why? Why did I want that? Is, it’s a good question. I really felt like in developing a relationship with a woman, that, that would kind of complete me as a man. And that’s something that I wanted to explore. And then as I’m exploring this relationship with a woman, I also thought, well then we can just be really great parents to kids and give our whole being and all we have to these little munchkins that will probably cause mayhem and ruin our sleep. And that will help me and you know, us, to just deepen our capacity to, to love, to love our kids, to love each other and, and that, that just seems really beautiful to me. So yeah, that’s, that’s what I’ll say.

Sammy Uyama: I want to go a little deeper into that because adoption, right? Well, you talk about like, having children, like, this so, this is probably something that could come up, that, the thought that would come up with like, it was, there’s other ways to have children and so what, and you mentioned you wanted a traditional family which means creating children, your own children with someone else. But then there’s all this other scientific stuff that you know, you can do like semen or what’d you call it an implant.

Gene: Yeah.

Sammy Uyama: That’s so, so what, so what about having your own children with your wife was really attractive for you? Can you, are you able to pinpoint that? Or is it just some, that, you just felt was something you wanted?

Gene:  I have nothing against adoption. I mean, you know. Who knows, maybe, maybe we will adopt children, you know. And I think there’s something beautiful about how the sexual relationship creates life, and that life lives in the womb of my wife for nine months. And, and then that baby comes out and it’s, it’s very clearly, comes from that, it’s mom and it’s dad and, you know, it, it’s kind of poetic in terms of the, the, the lineage of human beings and where we come from. You know, we come from our parents and it’s like, everything comes from our parents. And in the case of having biological children, it’s, you know, their DNA, everything, their makeup, how they, they got created, was, from this lineage of parents that had sexual relations and created a new generation. So, I thought that, so I’m drawn to the idea of having biological kids but I have absolutely nothing against adoption. There are many kids. You know, that are…

Sammy Uyama: Yeah, yeah, I got that.  Right.

Gene: ..looking to be adopted and I’m not against that.

Sammy Uyama: Right. Yeah. Appreciate you clarifying that. Didn’t want to paint the picture of you as… Anyway, but yeah, the, that’s, that’s the what, though, you said lineage; the word we use is legacy. And that’s something we tie that we see is very intimately tied with sex. Is, this legacy, this lineage they get, that gets created is everything you just covered. And another aspect for me personally, (inaudible) about Sammy. It is, I think, also, it’s beautiful that a child comes through this intimate connection between two people. And it’s also, I think, a very godly kind of experience where you’re really at, you are a creator. And that’s a very powerful thing to… Yeah, powerful experience to have is that you created a life with another person, a life that would not have existed otherwise, and a whole future, a whole future for the world that wouldn’t exist otherwise. I mean, you don’t know whatever the ripple effects are, and then the children that they have, etc, etc. And something about that, I think, is very powerful as well. Right. So what I would add is not about me, right, but…

Gene: No, yeah, that’s beautiful.

Sammy Uyama: And, so, then let’s go back to the fir – my first question was, so what was this process for you to, you started, you said 13 years old, you experienced this attraction to a certain, certain form of, of same sex attraction, specifically regarding men’s underwear. And starting from there, and then you’re now 26, 27, middle, mid to late 20s. And you are, and you’re married, you’re married, and you’re having lots of sex with your wife. And so, what, what was the, what was this journey, this process that got you to where you are after discovering what you wanted? And two things I heard you mentioned was this silence retreat in the Himalayan mountains, which simultaneously sounds very impactful and very exotic and adventurous. And the second thing I heard you mentioned, or and your involvement with High Noon is also something else you mentioned in practicing the, the certain form of relationship of developing that honesty muscle and practicing, the removing the shadows in your life and even when you didn’t want to continue to be authentic with people and what else made a difference for you?

Gene: Well, I also found a therapist who is actually a old family friends and became a very trusted mentor. And my therapist just really understood me, understood what I wanted and was just really great with me. And we did a lot of exploration and talked about, you know the wounds of the past and talked about physical touch and, and many other facets of my mind and my past and my sexuality. And honestly like through all of that it, it made the hugest difference but I can’t say exactly, you know how, how it worked. All I can say is that, that through doing this healing work, I found that the, the unwanted sexual attraction, the sexual attraction that I wasn’t proud of, that was often to people I disrespected and didn’t like, but somehow fantasizing about sexual relations with them was, is what I did when I felt crummy and it was, it was something that was very consuming how, really I didn’t want it but it was almost my way of like kicking myself in the dirt when, when I was, I was feeling kind of isolated and, and bad about myself and, and so I found that that’s, that unwanted sexual desire and craving lessons as I was doing this healing work and then I also did a men’s retreat. (crosstalk)

Sammy Uyama: I wouldn’t, before I, before I go to the next thing, so can you clarify what, what are we healing? When you say healing work? What do you mean by that?

Gene: That is a great, great question. Well, I mean with, with, I’d say most therapies, there’s, it’s oftentimes you explore your past and so my therapist and I we explored my past. We did different therapeutic techniques and it was all kind of just a uncover past experiences, some more triggering experiences, very shameful experiences, and looking at trying to, I guess heal, heal those experiences so that, so that in my present self; could be free of them. And don’t ask me how, how it worked, how that healing took place. You know, I don’t, I don’t know the science behind it. I just know it made a huge difference.

Sammy Uyama: You’re the, you’re the recipient of it, you’re, you’re not exactly the… …expert. Right? And so, okay, so it sounds like a, these experiences that people have; I’ve met particularly in childhood, I get those. That’s what I gather,

Gene: Right. Right.

Sammy Uyama: They leave these lingering wounds that even if we, we don’t think about them, but they still have some effect on us. Is that right?

Gene: Right. Yeah.

Sammy Uyama: Okay, so then, the need to go back and heal those.

Gene: I assume so. I don’t know the science but I mean, yeah.

Sammy Uyama: Yeah, well, do you have a- don’t worry, you don’t need to worry about talking about that. But is there some, is there one in particular impactful experience that through, through this, these exercises that, there’s some specific experience in your past that through, however it works, talking about it and through healing that it was, it made a really big difference for you?

Gene: Yeah, well, I mean, there, I, I feel there are a handful of experiences. But there was one experience that we kept going back to and it was this time when I was like eight years old and I had my, my siblings invite me to something; they didn’t say why, it was like a surprise and I knew something was fishy, but I was curious as to what they were up to. So I just kind of went along with it. And I ended up, like walking into this walk-in closet, which is where they were leading me. And all of a sudden, the lights go off, they pantsed me, they put a diaper on me and, and run off laughing with each other, at me. And I’m just kind of left there in this closet. And so, it was a memory that just kind of kept coming up. Those just, you know, vivid in my mind, clearly had an impact on me. And, you know, there’s just a lot of shame in that experience. I wanted to disappear which became a pretty, pretty reoccurring theme. As I was growing up, just very shy in school, constantly wanting, wishing, I wish I could just disappear. Nobody could see me. So I, you know, I again, I can’t say, how did this experience in my past directly alter my present? I don’t know, you know, exactly how but it was impacting me and doing the healing work around it. I just feel a lot more freedom in general, in my life.

Sammy Uyama: So how does it, what’s the, maybe it’s difficult question to answer but what does it feel inside of you to, that is not healed and then that is healed and what’s the difference, for you?

Gene: The difference, I well, of course, it’s not black and white, right? It’s not like I was wounded and then all of a sudden I’m healed. It’s, I mean, it’s a process and it’s a, it’s a constant lifelong process, right? I, but they’re these experiences that I’ve, I’ve had that, well, I guess I just, I feel lighter, I feel kind of freed up like a, something was weighing on me and it’s kind of been lifted. And, and I just also, you know, started trying to be more vulnerable and honest and share about these experiences and I shared with my siblings who, honestly as adults, they had, they had no memory of this, this very traumatic experience for me. They, you know, forgot about it. And so I asked them about it and they were like, no, but you know, we’re sorry. And I said, “Yeah, don’t don’t worry about it”. But I yeah, they didn’t even remember. But, but I feel lighter, I guess and I also feel just more like in tune with the kind of person I want to be, and it gives me this confidence. And I, I just feel like that helps me to navigate the choices I have when I’m presented with, there’s a trigger and I, I all of a sudden I’m craving, you know, my, my old fetish or, you know something else. Or I can let it go and move on and, and, you know, try to do something in my day that I’m actually proud of.

Sammy Uyama: Okay, so then you worked with this therapist, and you did this healing work and, and I’m sure, so I’m also curious what, what this, what you said, you can’t really explain so well, but what this process looks like, so I imagine you’re talking about these experiences with someone and is there any other work that you need to do like recreate anything or have felt like a, had some cleanup conversations with anyone prior like this conversation with your siblings. Was that part of the process of healing that? or…

Gene: Yeah, good, good question. I don’t know if my conversation with my siblings was really like, directly a part of the healing, but it was something I was really curious about. I just thought, geez, like, I keep coming back to this experience now that I’m like, trying to heal wounds from my past. And I was really curious if my siblings remembered and nope, none of them did. And well, one thing is, my, my therapist kind of pointed out, “Well, maybe there’s some, something in regards to your relationship with your dad”. And I thought, geez, like, I used to have an okay relationship with my dad. And now I have a pretty good relationship with my dad. And it’s pretty good, so I think we’re good. And we explored it and we looked at well, you know, maybe I, I wasn’t held much during my, more like, older childhood. That was pretty… And that wasn’t normal for my family, my parents will like, don’t hold each other, my siblings don’t hold each other. We’re all kind of, you know, keep your private space, keep your hands to yourself, kind of family. And so I, I believe that, that had an impact. I can’t say exactly how, but I could share a little more about that if you’d like.

Sammy Uyama: So, your therapist suggested that possibly there is this dynamic between you and your father that was involved in this and so, and did you, did you have good speak to your father about it or was it? Yeah,

Gene: I did, yeah.

Sammy Uyama: And you mentioned this, and you mentioned this about like, holdings, like physical connection, element, those missing from your childhood and so what was, what did you discover about that?

Gene: Yeah, so with my dad first, yeah, I, I, I had my doubts about whether that would make any difference but I decided that I would, well, I would reach out to my dad and see what he thinks and so I, I got in touch with my dad. I kind of communicated with him more frequently and eventually decided that I wanted to do like a father son trip. So I invited my dad out to California and we went down the coast and did a little like, surf trip. And I use that as an opportunity just to develop my relationship with my dad. I, I believe that my relationship with my dad has strengthened quite a bit, in the last several years, and that, that has made a difference. What difference has it made? I don’t know. But I just feel more in tune with the kind of son I want to be and the kind of man I want to be. And, and I, I feel like my dad is, is proud of me and has my back. And that’s, I can’t say exactly what that’s done for me, but I think it’s helped.

Sammy Uyama: Thank you. So there’s (inaudible) for, for me to takeaways, that desire, beyond your (inaudible) to take away, the general takeaway from what you said is that people have these experiences in their past, that affect them without them realizing it and the power and going, and going back and taking a look at those and seeing what that impact might be. Alright, then there’s, before we turn back to this conversation you mentioned the men’s retreat as another thing that was deeply impactful for you.

Gene: Yeah. I did this men’s retreat weekend. I, my, at first I heard about this men’s retreat and I was, I was not interested. I thought that is the silliest thing I’ve ever heard of, getting a bunch of guys together. I was not interested at all and I, I thought, not for me, it just, it just was not for me. Regardless at some point, I, it piqued my interest. And I thought, well, it’s, it seems that there’s a men’s retreat, kind of close by, and maybe I’ll, I’ll, if I go to it, maybe it’ll be helpful. Maybe it’ll be an impactful experience. So, you know, what do I have to lose here? You know, so I, I, I kind of thought there’s nothing to lose. So I’ll just check it out and, and see if this can help. Because at this time I was in a relationship with my wife, and I was really wanting to do whatever I needed to do, to be happily married to my wife. And so I ended up deciding to go to this men’s retreat. And when I went to the men’s retreats, it, it was extremely powerful, I, I was surprised from the beginning of just how, how much integrity and effort was put into having this be a really powerful transformational experience for men of all different ages, all different kinds of situations. And yeah, men came for all kinds of reasons, whether it was an addiction or they were just looking for something powerful to, you know, move them in the right direction, it vary, varied quite a bit. And I had this really powerful experience when I was there and I had the experience of being held, which is something that, honestly I didn’t really want, but in the midst of the retreat, it was something that just kind of struck me as, actually, maybe that is something I want to, to be held and embraced. And, and so during the retreats, there was a, like a father figure. And he, I ended up asking him that I, I asked him if he could hold me and there’s you know, after, there was like an appropriate time for it. And, and he said, “sure thing”, and, and I asked him if he could hold me like a father holds their son. And this, I wasn’t really sure what would come out of this but I ended up crying. I ended up crying a lot, for like 10 minutes straight. I was just crying. And I just felt like, I felt like, this is like, God’s love. This man was just allowing me to be so free and embraced and taken care of and, and something about that was very healing and I felt like something lifted off my shoulders. And I, I can’t say too much about, you know, how, how it worked, but I did feel like I got the transformation I needed. And now I feel much more comfortable around physical affection. And I can be very physically affectionate with my wife. And something about it was very transformational.

Sammy Uyama: Okay, wow! It’s something very, very, what’s the word… I just, worthwhile experience for any, any, any man, I think, whatever, with whatever they’re dealing with to be able to experience their masculinity.

Gene: Yeah.

Sammy Uyama: So we covered, we covered a lot of stuff and we covered four experiences that made a difference for you; the silence retreat, your work with high noon, your therapy work, this men’s retreat, anything else, that on your journey to, being that you’re in this relationship with somebody and with your wife and not to somebody, relationship with your wife and you can, you can attribute to this great relationship that you have, is there anything else?

Gene: I mean, there, there’s so much but those are the big things. I mean, there’s also mentors who made a big difference for me, my dear friends who were just willing to listen to whatever I had to say, whatever was on my heart. My, my parents that, yeah, there, there are tons of factors and tons of…

Sammy Uyama: Right, right. But I guess then, there’s things that we could actually point other people to, right there’s these would be right?

Gene: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Sammy Uyama: This, the silence retreat, to the 10 day Silent Retreat in Himalayan mountains of India. I like to just point people, who this might be appealing to somebody that, so where can people learn more about that?

Gene: Well, I did it in the Himalayan Mountains through a nonprofit called Tushita. And it specifically is around Tibetan Buddhism. But one that’s worldwide is Vipassana. I personally haven’t done it but people talk about this retreat, like it’s made the biggest differences in their life. And I believe them. So, I can’t say from personal experience, but it’s, it’s widely available. The Vipassana meditation retreat.

Sammy Uyama: And so, what you got from your experience with your retreat was reflecting deeply on what it is that you wanted in life, getting clear on that. So there’s one thing I hear, I’m sure there’s, you know, many, many things but for what you shared about here, and then there’s your work with High Noon, is what I got, help you train that honesty muscle and your integrity muscle and those two in practicing those in relationships. And then there was your therapy work, which where you did a lot of the healing work from these experiences in these wounds that you had in your, in your life and especially in your childhood. So where, if people are interested in, is there a specific modality that you did or where could people look to, to find more information about that.

Gene: Well, my therapist, his name is Philip Shanker. And he’s, he’s amazing. And yeah, I really appreciate his, his role and my, my journey.

Sammy Uyama: Right. So, you said he was a family friend, so, I guess that was, that was your connection with him. Do you know if he has a website or, or anything like that?

Gene: He has an email address. I don’t know about a website.

Sammy Uyama: Okay. All right. Anyway, so, but then, there’s many very well qualified therapists for people, but that therapy work was something that made a big difference for you.  Yeah. All right. And then the last thing was this men’s retreat, which sounds very mysterious as well. What is, what is this men’s retreat? It’s not, you said there’s something they do in many locations. Where can people learn more about this?

Gene: Yeah. Right, so the men’s retreat was called New Warrior training and the nonprofit that puts it on is called the Mankind Project. And they do – this is the kind of their flagship program, which is probably one of the best weekend’s of my life, that, well definitely was one of the best weekend’s of my life, but extremely transformational. So, yeah, I’m just grateful that I gave it a chance.

Sammy Uyama: Wow. Yeah, it sounds very, I’m, I’m very interested in this thing. Yeah, personally. And so I guess to wrap up, but if we could, I like to hear a little bit about not just your journey, getting to, from where you were, to where you are now. But what married life is like for you, and especially, we talked about sex and we haven’t really talked about that a whole lot. So in your position, going from being single and never in a relationship with someone to now married and in a sexual relationship with your wife, would you care to share a little bit of your before and after, (inaudible) what are the concepts you had about sex that you realize were really off after the fact?

Gene: Sure. Well, I guess one concept about sex that was really off is that, I thought of sex mostly as being very physical, like the physical act of sex. But actually, the best sex is very relational. And it’s, it’s very much about the intimacy between her and myself. And, and I really feel when we’re both trying to have the right heart, giving to each other and really trying to find like a higher purpose in mind. That, that really is, it makes for the best sex.

Sammy Uyama: Wow. Anything else?

Gen: Anything else?

Sammy Uyama: Yeah, yeah.

Gene: I mean, obviously, according to my story I, I kind of had this concept of, it was well, I wouldn’t say as a concept as much as doubts about how attraction and sexuality work and kind of thinking, well, maybe attraction is just something, you’re just born a certain way and your sexuality is a certain way and are attracted to certain things and after being in a relationship with my wife, I, I’m very clear that attraction develops, attraction ebbs and flows. And while I’m, I’m just very much grateful for and turned on by my relationship with my wife and my wife.

Sammy Uyama: Wow, you’re, there’s two dynamic aspects you’re attracted to your wife and the relationship you have with your wife. That’s, that’s fun. All right, thank you, Gene for sharing, that, just opening up your life and sharing so honestly, about yourself. Is there any parting words that you’d have for people on the journey to, to sex to, to doing sex right. I mean, that’s what this whole show is about is that we, we are really passionate about the power of sex and when you get it, right, how fantastic it is in our life, when we get it wrong, how much pain and how much damage it causes. And you’ve put in a lot of work in order to get what you wanted and to really do utilize the power of sex and productive and, and that in a meaningful, valuable way. And so for anybody else out there that are wanting to, they’re on their journey to get sex, right, what do you have to say to them?

Gene: Well, I just, I just really believe that a beautiful sex life is something that everyone deserves. And, you know, what, where- wherever you’ve been in your life and whatever, you’ve gone through, whatever experiences that, that a beautiful sex life is an option and a choice. And it’s something that I just keep coming back to and that’s that, I’m making my choices. And my choices are really, you know, whatever, whatever I really want. And I just, I hope other people can really just go for what is it that they really want and, and choose that.

Sammy Uyama: All right. Thank you, Gene. Very encouraging words. All right. So with that, we’ll wrap it up. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Gene, our guest for the day. Hope that was a valuable conversation. Let us know what you thought. You can email us contact us, leave review for us in the, in, on iTunes. Let us know what you thought of this episode or whole show. And Gene thank you again for joining us. Great to have you as a friend and great to have you on the show.

Gene: Thanks, Sammy. Thanks for having me.


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#22 – Manufactured Attraction

In this episode, Andrew and Sammy tackle a much-debated topic not just among couples, but especially among married ones: attraction. But in their discussion, they dig deeper into how most people’s experience of attraction is manufactured by outside influences, especially by porn. They also share their personal experiences on resetting their own sexual attractions. Listen now to know more about how to solve this debacle.


  1. I was always curious about this topic, thank you guys so much for sharing. I thought before if it was possible to change your attraction but I never heard a story about it.

  2. To all at High Noon:
    This program was just excellent! As a trained counselor and professor of family education I cannot thank Gene enough for his total honesty in sharing what must have been a very difficult and challenging course to create true love in his life. He covered so many incredible points, with keys to healing the heart and mind. When we are vulnerable and hurt we run away, hurt ourselves and try and comfort ourselves with what we need or what is missing. This Gene clearly pointed out. Another great part of this program was Sammy’s gentle but directional skill in not only asking the key, hard questions but his attentive listening to Gene answers and not letting one important point slip by unexplored. This takes years of experience to learn, clearly an indication that Sammy is truly gifted. It provided a step by step path for the listener to grasp tools for thier own process in finding or creating, as Gene stated, the love he wanted. High Noon is an exception gift and these stories can help transform our world which is so confused about what love is. The Internet is being used selfishly to cause great harm to people lives, their families and future, without the abusers taking any responsibility for the damage they have done. The work you are doing can transform that harm. Thank you especially Gene, Sammy, Andrew, Benjy and the Wolfenburgers, and all who were involved in the production of this life changing information. I cannot imagine a more important task than helping build families of true love.

    Betsy Orman, M. Ed.
    State Director American Family Coalition & National Parents Day.
    North Dakota Ret…

  3. Thank you Gene for your honesty and open heart! May your life be happy and prosperous!!!
    And thank you the High Noon team for your amazing work!

  4. Awesome talk! But yo, is Sammy talking to close to the mic?? His voice gets distorted when he talks loud. Other than that, great topic and well done Gene!!

  5. I in no way wish to detract from the honesty and courage of this young man, but I think it is an exaggeration and mis-representation to call it ‘a journey with same-sex attraction.’ It does not sound as if it was really an intrenched same sex attraction-more. as he says a ‘fetish’-and his deep desire from the beginning was to have a heterosexual relationship.

  6. I am very moved by your hopeful and inspiring testimony. A distant friend of mine, is deeply involved with the Mankind project. I will forward him your testimony. You challenge me to have a deeper relationship with my son. Thanks for your COURAGE, HONESTY, GRACE , SEXUAL INTEGRITY, and ACCOUNTABILITY. You truly embody well the values of HighNoon.

  7. I’m so anxious about having this kind of testimony in Spanish. Thank you very much for your work. I hope it grows infinitely!